Yhwh, God of Edom

Goddess from Horvat Qitmit

I’m working on a portion of my thesis that discusses the earliest history of the Israelite deity Yhwh, and I think some of the material merits sharing. A lot of people may not be aware of the evidence that exists that Yhwh was originally a deity from the southwestern territory of Edom, on the west of the Arabah, a large valley running south from the Dead Sea down to the gulf of Aqabah. The evidence begins in the Hebrew Bible with a small number of early biblical texts that suggest Yhwh originated in that area:

Deut 33:2: Yhwh came from Sinai, and rose up unto us from Seir; he shined forth from mount Paran.

Judg 5:4–5: Yhwh, when you went out of Seir, when you marched forth from the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped; yea, the clouds dropped water. The mountains quaked before the presence of Yhwh, the one of Sinai; from before Yhwh, the God of Israel.

Hab 3:3: God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran.

Seir is understood to have been located on the east side of the Arabah, where the Edomites were originally settled. They would later expand into the west, displacing the Horites. Mount Paran is likely to be located near the wilderness of Paran, located west of the Arabah. No one knows the exact location of Mount Sinai, but guesses range from the south of the Sinai peninsula up and over the gulf of Aqabah into the east, Midianite territory. Given Moses stumbles upon the mountain while tending to his Midianite father-in-law’s sheep, it’s probably not too far from the eastern side of the Arabah. Teman is on the western edge of the Arabah.

Now, the exodus tradition has Yhwh first reveal himself in this territory to a man who just married into a Midianite priest’s family. That priest, Jethro/Reuel, calls upon Yhwh’s name and even presides over sacrifices offered to him (Exod 18:10–12). Could the Midianites and Edomites have worshipped Yhwh? The Bible warns the Israelites not to hate the Edomites, since “they are your brothers,” and there is no mention of an Edomite deity anywhere in the Hebrew Bible (nor can I find a reference to a uniquely Midianite deity). This stands in contrast to the polemic leveled against the patron deities of the other nations surrounding Israel, including to the south. It also stands in contrast to the approbation of violence perpetrated against the Edomites and Midianites elsewhere in the Bible. Phineas, for example, was championed for slaughtering an Israelite who brought a Midianite woman into the camp (Num 25:1–9), but Moses, who commanded the Israelites not mix with Midianites, was married to the daughter of a Midianite priest! This suggests the larger exodus tradition dates to a much later period than the tradition associated with Moses’ early family life, when the Midianites and Edomites were enemy peoples.

We also have non-biblical references to Yhwh’s location in Edomite territory. At Kuntillet ‘Ajrud, a way station west of the Arabah, an inscription was discovered that calls the Israelite deity “Yhwh of Teman.” Some Egyptian sources also link Yhwh with the territory. Two texts, one from the fourteenth century BCE and another from the thirteenth century BCE, mention “the land of the Shasu, namely Yhw’.” This casts the Tetragrammaton as a toponym associated with the Shasu, who were nomads (the meaning of “Shasu”) located in the region of Edom, according to other Egyptian texts. Scholars generally agree that the Shasu contributed stock, if not the primary line, to the subsequent Israelite ethnos. That ethnos is first attested at the end of the thirteenth century BCE in a victory stela erected by the Egyptian Merneptah. That stela describes “Israel” as a people, and likely locates them in the central hill country of northern Israel.

This may all help explain why no other culture of Canaan worshipped Yhwh. Baal, El, and Asherah seem to be deities acknowledged and revered by multiple ethnicities in Canaan, but Yhwh is Israel’s alone. They were indigenous, he was imported. The conflict that is constantly highlighted in the Bible between Yhwh and Baal is intriguing in light of the complete absence of any such conflict between Yhwh and the Canaanite patriarchal deity El. Judg 5:4–5 gives us clues. Yhwh’s power is described with imagery associated with the storm deity motif. The same can be said of numerous other texts. Psalm 29, for instance, refers repeatedly to thunder and lightning as expressions of Yhwh’s glory. Baal was also a storm deity, and while deities performing the same function within the pantheon could be tolerated across national borders (see chapter 1 here), in the same region, there would be room enough only for one. Baal and Yhwh were thus in constant competition for devotees of the local storm deity. Yhwh did not bring imagery associated with the patriarchal deity to Canaan, but rather he appropriated that imagery, along with the station, from the local Canaanite patriarchal deity. There was no need to combat his influence.

Thus, an Edomite deity from around the Arabah was brought north to the central highlands around the end of the thirteenth century. At some point a federation or coalition of tribes dedicated to this deity coalesced, perhaps as described in the Song of Deborah in Judges 5, and developed into a state.

Here are some scholarly articles for further reading, if you’re interested in the topic:

N. Amzallag, “Yahweh, the Canaanite God of Metallurgy?JSOT 33.4 (2009): 387-404.

J. Blenkinsopp, “The Midianite-Kenite Hypothesis Revisited and the Origins of Judah,” JSOT 33.2 (2008): 131-53.

J. Kelley, “Toward a new synthesis of the god of Edom and Yahweh,” Antiguo Oriente: Cuadernos del Centro de Estudios de Historia del Antiguo Oriente 7 (2009).

T. Schneider, “The First Documented Occurrence of the God Yahweh? (Book of the Dead Princeton ‘Roll 5′),” JANER 7.2 (2007): 113-20.

N. Shupak, “The God from Teman and the Egyptian Sun God: A Reconsideration of Habakkuk 3:3-7,” JANES 28 (2001): 97-116.


38 responses to “Yhwh, God of Edom

  • YHWH: An Imported Deity? | Ex Libris

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  • Brian LePort

    Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. This makes me rethink the identity of Moses’ father-in-law Jethro, who is a priest in Midian without any negative disclaimers to prevent us from understanding him to be a priest in a positive way.

    • Daniel O. McClellan

      Exactly. Moses was quite literally trained by a Midianite priest who himself offered sacrifices to Yhwh.

      • Howard Pepper

        Fascinating article… thanks! You’re making good sense in terms of what anthropology and ancient history I know. I used to do what most Christians still do… almost no analysis or critical thinking about what the Hebrew Scriptures tell us between the lines about who Yhwh “was” (in terms of both origins and development of characteristics)… and some of it is actually IN the lines!

        In terms of Moses, he was (or was storied to be) quite eclectic! Raised with serious Egyptian learning, then closely exposed, and apparently accepting of Midianite (Yhwh?) influence… Is his eventual theology perhaps a blend of these two and maybe additional influences? And do you think he was both a “thought leader” and the great political/governmental leader leading the Exodus and “40 years” of desert wandering? Only rarely is a leader strong in both aspects. I haven’t studied him much “critically” but I’m now thinking he sounds like a composite, symbolic figure, with so much being rolled into one person. (And I have long believed the Exodus, as told in the Bible, was such… a major exaggeration on several levels, so I guess I’m answering my own q.: Moses would HAVE to be also :) .

  • Foundations

    Yah maybe more ancient/universal rather than being from Edom/Midian (even if were so where did the Edom/Midian one come from?)

    Possible cognates of Yah/Yhwh around ancient world:
    America – Jehu (inscription)? Yaotl? Teotl? Jacy? ‘-ihah’ (Mormon)? Taiowa (sun god Hopi)? Yocahu?
    African – Yayu? Xewioso? Jakomba? Yo?
    Italy – Janus? Jove? Jas (Abraxas)?
    Greek – Iao? Ievs/Zeus/Jeoud? Iacchus? Chaos?
    [“Cyprus”?] – Ia-dan?
    Egypt – Iahu? Yah/Aah (Thoth/Sin)? (Ja-)im-hotep (Wyatt)? Mosakayahu? Heh?
    Ethiopia – Yaro/Yero?
    Egypt/Shasu – Yhw/Jhw/Yahu [hill god, M Murray]?
    Arabia/Midian – hwhy/yhwh/yhhw/whhy (Lawz inscription, Cornuke)? Yaghuth/”Jeush” (time)? Yahya (John)?
    Israel – Jas/Jach/Yah/’-iah’ /Yhwh/Yahweh/Jehovah /Yod /Eyah (“speaker”/”I Am”, El/Adonai, Arad)? Yeshua? Eve? Jave (Cain)?
    Syria/Phoenicia/Canaan – Iao? Yaw? Yam(m)? Ya (Ebla)? Yeya (lord/god)?
    Gnostic/Kosmon – ‘Eee-A-O’/Iaoth/Yaoth
    Mesopotamia – Ea/Hea/Yav/en-Ki (Lochore//Massey)? Ya (Ebla)? Zu?
    Afghan – Dezau?
    Indus/India – Yaya (Hrozny)? Dyaus?
    China – Yao (Velikovsky)? Tao? nu-Kwa? Yi (Hrozny)? Yu?
    Maori – Io/Iho/Kiho? Atua?

    Not sure if the D-/T- versions (Dyaus/Zeus/Teotl) are related or not?

    * Cronus->Zeus ~ Elohim->Yhwh?

  • jasondulle

    Some thoughts and questions.

    Does the mere fact that the name of God, YHWH, predates Israel mean that they borrowed YHWH from the Edomites?

    And what reason do we have to believe that the YHWH the Edomites followed is the same YHWH the Israelites followed? Couldn’t they have conceived of this god differently (similarly to how Jews and Christians both speak of “God,” and yet have very different understandings about the nature and character of God).

    And I’m not sure how amazed we should be that someone else other than Israel might have a god named YHWH given it’s basic meaning (“He is,” or something similar). It could even be the case that YHWH revealed himself to the ancestors of the Edomites, and while they retained His name in their worship they perverted His identity through syncretism.

    • Daniel O. McClellan

      I’m not suggesting borrowing so much as migrating. Segments of the Edomite population who worshipped YHWH seem to have migrated to the north, taking their deity with them and making up a fragment of the earliest Israelite ethnos. The local deity would have been the Canaanite patriarchal deity El. It’s unlikely this is a different YHWH because there is no other attestation of that divine name except among the Israelites, and it appears just before the Israelite ethnos appears.

    • Stephanie

      I do agree….nothing new under the sun….serving the Most High in action is worship and not just using a name and calling him your own….good example: chritians and jews.

  • Scripturefocus

    So, Danny, how do your Mormon comrades like your thoughts?

  • Ron Den Boer

    The Book of Mormon contradicts the whole concept of the Nature of the Godhead and Nature of Jesus the way Joseph Smith taught and agrees completely with the Creeds of the 4th and 5th century. 2 Nephi 26:12, Alma 11:44, Mosiah 3:5 and 5:15 etc

  • Ivan Komotios

    Could Daniel O. McClellan produce some verses in the Book of Mormon to substantiate his finding ?

    “The Prophet Joseph Smith said, “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (T. of P.J.S., p. 194).

    He also said, “Take away the Book of Mormon and the revelations, and where is our religion? We have none” (Ibid., p. 71). But, Smith’s successor, LDS Prophet Brigham Young, said, “There is the New Testament; you may leave out the Book of Mormon and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and follow the precepts of that book faithfully, and I will warrant you to arrive at salvation” (J. of D., Vol. I, p. 244). This is another example of LDS prophetic inconsistency.

    LDS Apostle Orson Pratt wrote a series of questions and answers in which he said, “Q. What will be the consequences if they (the United States) do not embrace the Book of Mormon as a divine revelation? A. They will be destroyed from the land and sent down to hell, like all other generations who have rejected a divine message” (The Seer, p. 215). The United States still has not embraced the B. of M. after more than 150 years, but they have not been destroyed either!

    Pratt also said, “Before this [the B. of M.] was offered to the world, the Lord confirmed it by opening the heavens in broad daylight, and sending down an holy angel, who descended in the presence of four individuals, three besides Mr. Smith, and the angel took the plates, and turned them over leaf after leaf, while, at the same time, the voice of the Lord out of the heavens told them it had been translated correctly, commanding them to send forth their testimony to all nations, Kingdoms, tongues, and people” (J. of D., Vol. II, p. 293).

    • Daniel O. McClellan

      My blog isn’t about Mormonism, so if you’ve got a contribution to make to the post, make it, but if you’re just here to spew belligerent sectarian nonsense, I’m not going to let you continue to post.

  • NRA Jeff

    Like others, I find your research fascinating. It provides a backdrop to the OT story that is only vaguely mentioned in the OT, if at all. Thanks for sharing this. — NRA Jeff

    • Ron Den Boer

      Joseph Smith: Many men say there is one God; the Father, the son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say this is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . . All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.“
      (History of the Church * Volume 6 Page 476 * 1844

      “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret… …I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know…that he was once a man like us…. Here, then, is eternal life – to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you… (“King Follett Discourse,” Journal of Discourses 6:3-4, also in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345-346, and History of the Church, vol. 6, 305-307,)”

      As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.
      Author: Lorenzo Snow
      Source: Gospel Through The Ages
      Chapter: 43
      Page: 105

      Joseph Smith’s statement here is very strange when he taught this until about 1835

      2 Nephi 31:
      21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

      Alma 11:
      44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

      Mormon 7:
      7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

      The Testimony of Three Witnesses
      And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
      Oliver Cowdery
      David Whitmer
      Martin Harris

      Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
      28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

      2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

      Moroni 7:22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting , behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

      Moroni 8:18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

      Mormon 9:9 For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever , and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

      Hebrews 12: 8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

      Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

  • Charles

    I find your research fascinating as I took have found that the Edomites brought Yahweh with them to Israel. From my notes which I lost I remember that Yahu was a deity of Africa and the Arab deserts. That Yahweh is described as a storm God is perfectly in line with other religions depictions of the Sumerian Enki who was also a Storm God.

    Firstly thank you very much for taking the time to research this topic. I too have found in my personal research that the Edomites who were locals of Mount Seir/Sin/Sinai brought their desert deity that is also found in Arabia and Africa into the Kingdom of Israel.

    That Yahweh is described as a storm god just as Sumerian Enki, Egyptian Osiris, Canaanite Baal, Greek Zeus, Nordic Odin, Roman Jupiter, Carthaginian Baal-Hammon, and Phoenician Melqart is telling in the extreme.

    An/Anu,and El never being described as storm gods but instead as sky gods.

    It stands to reason that since Ram known as Abram and Abraham was from Sumeria that the Hebrew pantheon is Sumerian and that El of the Hebrews is the same as Anu of the Sumerians. This would indicate that after falling from grace the Israelite kingdom began worshiping Enki in place of El under the name Yahweh.

    In the Sumerian religion Enki is God of the Earth. In the Hebrew Bible Lucifer is God of this World. If the Hebrew religion comes from Sumeria then Lucifer is Enki and Satan is his son the Sumerian god Marduk.

    In the Sumerian religion after Anu and Enlil God the Father and God the Son decided that humanity should be eliminated for their transgressions via a global flood Enki saves Ziusudra by instructing him to build a massive cube structure akin to Noah’s Ark.

    In the Hebrew religion after El and Christ God the Father and God the Son decided that humanity should be eliminated for their transgressions via a global flood they had mercy on the human race and selected Noah because of his genetic perfection to survive and to do so they instructed him in the creation of the Ark.

    El and Christ / Anu and Enlil as well as Lucifer / Enki are both said through these two religions to have saved humanity from total destruction.

    On the nature of good and evil. Countless children throughout the ages have been murdered as blood sacrifices to Enki, Ninhursag and Marduk by various names. Whereas El and Christ only demanded Ram sacrifice his son Isaac to them as a test of his faith. Upon completion of the test no sacrifice was required.

    The false gods require the blood sacrifice of innocent life. The true gods require faith alone.

    I wish I had been able to retain the compiled notes on this topic, I would have been very happy to provide them to aid in your understanding.

    May I suggest you look into the concept of Zeus as a deity who was worshiped by the Egyptians as the Ba of the Lord of Djedet. Their legend goes Zeus did not want to appear to Heracles as himself and so he appeared with the head of a ram. This legend of Egyptian Mendes ties the religion of Egypt directly to the religion of Greece.

    Both of these cultures may have inherited their religions through the travels of the people of Edom. Edom while may have colonized Philistine, Phoenica, Minoa, Crete, Cyrus, Carthage, Greece, Rome, etc.

    The Edomites themselves being indoctrinated in the Babylonian religion again during their captivity in Sumerian Babylon as slaves taken from the Kingdom of Judah.

    Good luck in your research and I suggest you ignore all these people trying to distract you from this quest for knowledge of the true history of this faith.

  • Charles

    Firstly thank you very much for taking the time to research this topic. I too have found in my personal research that the Edomites who were locals of Mount Seir/Sin/Sinai brought their desert deity that is also found in Arabia and Africa into the Kingdom of Israel.

    That Yahweh is described as a storm god just as Sumerian Enki, Egyptian Osiris, Canaanite Baal, Greek Zeus, Nordic Odin, Roman Jupiter, Carthaginian Baal-Hammon, and Phoenician Melqart is telling in the extreme.

    An/Anu,and El never being described as storm gods but instead as sky gods.

    It stands to reason that since Ram known as Abram and Abraham was from Sumeria that the Hebrew pantheon is Sumerian and that El of the Hebrews is the same as Anu of the Sumerians. This would indicate that after falling from grace the Israelite kingdom began worshiping Enki in place of El under the name Yahweh.

    In the Sumerian religion Enki is God of the Earth. In the Hebrew Bible Lucifer is God of this World. If the Hebrew religion comes from Sumeria then Lucifer is Enki and Satan is his son the Sumerian god Marduk.

    In the Sumerian religion after Anu and Enlil God the Father and God the Son decided that humanity should be eliminated for their transgressions via a global flood Enki saves Ziusudra by instructing him to build a massive cube structure akin to Noah’s Ark.

    In the Hebrew religion after El and Christ God the Father and God the Son decided that humanity should be eliminated for their transgressions via a global flood they had mercy on the human race and selected Noah because of his genetic perfection to survive and to do so they instructed him in the creation of the Ark.

    El and Christ / Anu and Enlil as well as Lucifer / Enki are both said through these two religions to have saved humanity from total destruction.

    On the nature of good and evil. Countless children throughout the ages have been murdered as blood sacrifices to Enki, Ninhursag and Marduk by various names. Whereas El and Christ only demanded Ram sacrifice his son Isaac to them as a test of his faith. Upon completion of the test no sacrifice was required.

    The false gods require the blood sacrifice of innocent life. The true gods require faith alone.

    I wish I had been able to retain the compiled notes on this topic, I would have been very happy to provide them to aid in your understanding.

    May I suggest you look into the concept of Zeus as a deity who was worshiped by the Egyptians as the Ba of the Lord of Djedet. Their legend goes Zeus did not want to appear to Heracles as himself and so he appeared with the head of a ram. This legend of Egyptian Mendes ties the religion of Egypt directly to the religion of Greece.

    Both of these cultures may have inherited their religions through the travels of the people of Edom. Edom while may have colonized Philistine, Phoenica, Minoa, Crete, Cyrus, Carthage, Greece, Rome, etc.

    The Edomites themselves being indoctrinated in the Babylonian religion again during their captivity in Sumerian Babylon as slaves taken from the Kingdom of Judah.

    Good luck in your research and I suggest you ignore all these people trying to distract you from this quest for knowledge of the true history of this faith.

    Please remove my above post as there were spelling errors and blocks of text I intended to edit out of the final post. Thank you.

  • Irene Bonney

    A good article by Roger Hathaway ‘Sacred Name of God? or Blasphemy? He proposes that the Edomites hd as their deity, YHWH as a key to their magic and that when they took over Jerusalem they already had imbibed the Talmudic Pharisaical religion, Babylon. Also, and a Rev. John Cortwright states a similar belief, he says that the Septuagont of 285 Bc did not use the name for Yhwh but ‘Kurios’, ‘Lord’. Philo, Josephus, Eusebius and Aristeas never used any name for God. Unfortunately, most English translations follow the Masoretic Text of the Talmudic Jews.

  • mithrandirolorin

    Jethro wasn’t a Midianite, he was in Midian but his own tribal identity is consistently as a Kenite.

    • Dreneri

      Good to see you are on to this. I also have read that Yhwh originally was the name of moon god in Egypt about 2000 B.C. YHWH is a tetragammaton and is even used by witches in witchcraft. It is on one of the tarot cards. I have the septuagint of the Ancient Greek Orthodox Church and never is ther a Jehovah, Yah, but always Lord. He did say ‘I Am that I am’ has sent you and His name is the Lord. I have found that End-timers following the supposed ‘revelation’ of John Nelson Darby – and that is millions of so-called Christians and preachers, seminaries, whole denominations i.e. Baptist, A.O.G., C.O.C., Oneness Pentecostal believe it is Yhwh, Jehovah, Yah the latter being in the Psalms of the KJV that incidentally had the Apocrypha of the R.C. Church in its first publications for at least a hundred years. My friend just saw a 200 year old KJV with the Apocrypha in it. The KJV was ordered by James I (James VI of Scotland) 1611. For political purposes only. He appointed two men to oversee the translation such being a Jew (I have his name somewhere) and Sir Francis Bacon whose relative was into Satanic beliefs. Francis is said to be the son of Queen Elizabeth I and Lord Dudley (her lover) but ordered years later to be executed. Sir Francis Bacon had by orders, the oversight of conditions in the American ‘colony’. He had always had it mind that it would be an Atlantis I think it was. I have the record somewhere.
      As for Edom, End-Timers think the prophecies about Edom are to be fulfilled. In fact all prophecies in the O.T. re such people, nations, cities and Israel have been fulfilled. I have proved it on research. Am putting out four videos on the subject as: The Gospel of the Kingdom (for the Millennium); The Announcement to Israel; Second Chance in the Millennium; The Gospel Was Believed in the Old Testament. On U Tube revirene1 To come on in a couple of days. You might like to listen for a bit. I have found a few modern writers who have done wide research even travelling to the countries from Egypt up as far as the Caspian Sea, through Turkey. They with much effort have provided factual evidence of much of what is said on the thread but those particular writers have not been investigating the name Yhwh. They found evidence of the fallen angels, giants, the gods springing from them, evidences of the flood world-wide in all cultures with the connection of the pyramids to the stars – star worship and too much to mention.

      • Dreneri

        I do stand by the general authenticity of the Bible as we have it and know for sure that the Apocrypha of the Eastern Orthodox Chruch and other books should be in ours. It seems Moses would have been taught about God as they knew Him from his mother but it is obvious despite his having been probably to a large extent involved in the mythology, occultism of the Egyptian court and of Midian that after He had a wonderful meeting with The I Am That I Am in Exodus he had a changed. Somehow or other he knew it was the Word of God in His eternal deity who was in the bush that he saw burning and that this Word was Christ who spoke. That is why the ground was holy because He had appeared in an epithany He would becoe flesh, with a body of dust specially created as through Mary’s seed by the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost. There is a mystery of course of the Deity who is/are Three, as testified by the O.T. in a small way, the N.T. in a large way and greatly in the book of 1 Enoch (I would urge you to get it,free postage translasion by Knibbs but others are good) from Book Depository – and the Apocalypse of Isaiah, both so glorious and then there is Jasher and the Book of Jubilees – these being the most important in my view. Then further on in the chapter, God says who He is. What a meeting. What a change Moses must have had as evidenced in Hebrews 11 where Moses left the riches of Egypt etc. for ‘the riches of Christ’ – whom he obviously had revealed to him. But the N.T. we have is from corrupt mss. used by the Masorete Jews from A.D.87 when they began to produce it and also began committing to writing the Talmud and Kabbalah that they already believed in, followed and knew by heart through Oral Tradition, that Jesus condemned. The original corrupt mss. was Paleo Hebrew without dots. Dots were added over a small period of time and always were a source of discussion among the Rabbis often in disagreement. The earlier O.T. the Hebrews had was written in Phoenician flowing writing, of which only three small scraps remain in a museum/archives some place. After Christ the Masoretes continually pursued the Christians whom they hated in total hatred of Christ whom they had crucified – many of the guilty having died or being slain in the Roman captures of the land, Jerusalem, destruction of the city, temple etc. by A.D.70. They did also affect the N.T. but of that there are no original mss. and I myself would hope to see one day an English translation from what the Ethiopians have. But there is enough truth throughout our whole Bible – a great amount of truth – for us to go on. What God gave is infallible and much of what we have is infallible. No translation could be infallible and many scholars are too liberal and remain in the circle of influence. If many know what I have just typed, they do not say so. Of course the Jews greatly infiltrated the R.C. Church, Protestantism and today most evangelical churches of all denominations with their Kabbalistic doctrines of the End Times/ Israel as promoted by their tool, John Nelson Darby, 1828. Quite a history and story is gradually being exposed to those who seek for truth. I love the desire of God that we follow the Truth and we will not find it outside of the Bible and that includes going to the books not included in ours. There is ultimate truth in the Scriptures we just have to dig for it and that means a certain understanding of the history behind and around the Old Testament and indeed the New. However, we must guard against being too swayed by secualr writers. We should know enough of God’s truth to be able to extract from them what is right and leave sitting there, what is in a different area than that of the true gospel in particular and of the actual truths we can indeed find from the Old Testament – all books, in our Bibles and available on line.

      • mithrandirolorin

        The Septuagint is corrupt and avoids the name of Yahweh because of a Rabbinic Jewish misunderstanding of the “LORD’s name in vain” commandment.

        Yes Yahweh’s name is used by the occult sometimes, because Satan wants to profane everything of God.

      • Howard Pepper

        A couple observations: Whatever the good/bad correspondence of the LXX to Hebrew Bible, it was the version generally quoted from or paraphrased by the New Testament writers. Yet even “inerrantists” seldom worry about how/why things got passed along. And if Jesus quoted or referred to the Hebrew Bible, it was almost certainly in Aramaic. So from Hebrew to Aramaic to oral tradition (Aramaic/Greek?), then to written Greek in NT texts, and of course then to English as most of us read it.

        Daniel or others can confirm or not, but I don’t think it’s technically right to refer to “Rabbinic Judaism” in the period in which the LXX was done (2nd century BC)… that designation only refers to the period after 70 CE (or AD) to my understanding.

      • Dreneri

        As to Rabbinic Judaism of course it commenced around A.D.87 from what I have gathered. As for Jesus using Aramaic, according to what I have researched His use of such was in ‘Tabitha Cumi’, as quoted in the KJV, which version could never have been perfect, considering it was due to an evil King James I under supervision of Sir Francis Bacon, definitely not a Christian man, a Master Rosicrucian and Mason together with Robert Fludd, Grandmaster of the Priory of Sion, an Alchemist, as read. As Greek was the language of the Roman Empire, to me it is obvious to me here, that Jesus and the disciples spoke Greek, used the Greek Septuagint. Reading of 1 Enoch, Ascension of Isaiah, and a few other ‘lost books’ reveal most wonderful, supernatural and to us invisible matters concerning the heavens of God. Paul went up to the third, not being able to even speak of what he saw. Christ is the substance of heaven and that is Spirit which invisible to us world is the reality. Many Bible readers read it in a philosophical and human together with a scholarly manner. Such miss the Spiritual wisdom and understanding to garner the Spiritual matters that have been revealed truly and coming to us through the Scriptures.

      • mithrandirolorin

        I reject that notion, I believe the NT Authors were simply saying in Greek what they read in The Hebrew. The Spetuigant we know was preserved by latter Christian copyists, so that is why it often matches the NT. But those Septuigant manuscripts came with the NT manuscripts used to attack the KJV.

        The Aramaic thing is a myth too, there is lot’s of evidence Hebrew was still used regularly up till the Bar-Kochba revolt.

  • Dreneri

    You think the Septuagint is corrupt? I am not satisfied with it but the KJV is very suspect. That was overseen by two Anti Christ people. Where do you think it is corrupt, please?

  • Christian Apologist

    YHWH in the world today

    1. “To those who through the righteousness of Our God and Savior Jesus Christ,” 2 Peter 1:1
    Emphatic Diaglott
    2. “The glorious appearing of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,” Titus 2:13 Emphatic Diaglott
    3.”Keep watch over yourself and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has you overseer. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” Acts 20:23 New International V
    4.”Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all forever praised amen” Romans 9:5 King James
    5.”The life appeared, we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the Eternal Life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.” 1 John 1:2 King James and we are in him who is the true even in his son Jesus, He is the True God and Eternal Life,” 1 John 5:20 King James
    6.”In the beginning, was the WORD, and the WORD was with GOD and the WORD was GOD Himself.” John 1:1 Amplified Version
    7.”And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; GOD was manifested in the flesh.” 1 Timothy 3:16 King James
    8.”and Thomas answered and said to him “ My LORD and my God,” Jesus said to him :Thomas because you have seen me you have believed,” John 20:28 King James
    9.”for in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD BODILY,” Colossians 2:9 King James “GODHEAD” {Greek-Theotetos}. In Thayers Greek page 288; The state of being God
    10.”who although being essentially one with God and in the Form of God {possessing the fullness of the attributes which make GOD GOD} did not think this equality with God was a thing to be grasped or retained.” Philippians 2:6 Amplified version
    11. “In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.” John 1 : 1 Amplified Bible
    12.”No one has seen God {referring to the Father} BUT GOD the One and Only, who is at the Fathers side has made him known.” John 1:18 New International {Jehovah GOD was seen many times by the people, so in them cases it couldn’t be the Father, {had to be Jesus who was seen and called Jehovah.

    “Moses and Aaron, Nahab and Abihu, and seventy of the Elders went up and saw God of Israel under his feet was something like pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky it self, but God did not raise his hand against these leaders of Israelites, they saw God, and they ate and drank,” Exodus 24:9-11

    “at this point the men turned from there way to Sodom but as for JEHOVAH he was standing still before Abraham….then JEHOVAH went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham.” Genesis 18:22-33 New World Translation Genesis 18:2 says three men appeared to Abraham, two are identified as angels {Genesis 19:1} ONE IS IDENTIFIED AS JEHOVAH GOD Genesis 18:1,3,13,14,17,20,22,26,27,31,32 and 33

    the biblical use of the word “firstborn” is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean “pre-eminence.” In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, “I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him…I also shall make him My first-born” (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.

    Gen. 41:51-52, “And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my fatherï’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction” (NASB)

    Jer. 31:9, “…for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB).”

    • Dreneri

      It is interesting for me that despite the difference shown in the two main creeds – that to me do not correctly portray the Deities, in the book of 1 Enoch, there are definitely the three portrayed, with God and His Elect being the prominent. Then in Ascension of Isaiah there are distinctly three on three thrones. The Godhead is never mentioned as ‘the fullness of the “godhead” bodily’ KJV Colossians but there are three Beings each Deity. There is no indication in either of those books and neither is there in the Scriptures we generally use (66 books) of the Son as such in the Old Testament. He became Son when He was begotten of the Father (John 1) in the womb of Mary. In the O.T. until then He is the Word of God. In 1 Enoch, the Elect. In Matthew 4 and Luke, the voice from heaven announces ‘This is My Elect’, in Luke I think it is, ‘Beloved Son’ elsewhere. The three are One in substance, Deity.

      • Christian Apologist

        I see the Creeds and the Book of Mormon going hand in hand

        2 Nephi 26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

        3 Nephi 11:17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.

        Mosiah 3:5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.

        3 Nephi 19:
        18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.

        Mosiah 5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

        2 Nephi 10:3
        3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

        2 Nephi 25:29
        And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

        Jesus is God above all, our Lord and God, God from Eternity, the Most High God and the eternal God according to the Book of Mormon

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